FORUM GEREJA2 TANPA PREJUDIS

gidong · Status: Offline

FORUM GEREJA2 TANPA PREJUDIS

Date: Apr 2 03:48:47 2004

Shallom! Saya rasa setiap gereja berhak untuk menentukan halatuju masing-masing. Yang penting ada semangat saling memahami dan tolong menolong antara semua gereja tanpa mengira mahzabnya. Sungguh indah bila dapat bekerjasama. Amen. Tuhan memberkati.

gidong · Status: Offline

Shalom, bagi saya secara pribadi, kita harus dapat saling menerima d antara satu sama lain, bahkan boleh menjalin satu kerjasama di antara satu sama lain tanpa diHALANGI oleh Gereja apa yg kita ANUTI, KECUALI LAH secara terangan kita tahu gereja itu SESAT dari FIRMAN TUHAN ! Ya yg terpenting sekali adalah JANGAN ada KE"AKU"AN dan "gereja sayalah yg paling benar" "gereja sayalah yg paling alkitabiah", JANGAN sekali-kali bangga menganuti agama yg kita kira TER"OK" dari antara gereja2 sebab ini hanya akan menjadikan kita TIDAK DAPAT MENERIMA anggota gereja2 yg lain, secara definisi nya PREJUDIS dgn anggota gereja yg lain, Ada baiknya kita dapat mengasihi setiap pribadi tanpa mengira apa gereja yg mereka anuti. Saya pernah melihat sendiri hal yg berkaitan dgn perkara ini, malah menyedihkan ini berlaku ditempat saya sendiri, ditempat saya mereka akan senang hati dan terbuka kalau ada lawatan dari anggota gereja yg sama dgn gereja mereka, tetapi apabila ada gereja dari rumpun gereja berbeza MEREKA mengatakan bahawa mereka dari kalangan yg berbeza dan menolak lawatan mereka hanya dgn alasan TIDAK SEALIRAN ! Betapa sayangnya bagi kita yg sama2 diselamatkan dgn DARAH yg sama tdk dapat saling menerima dan saling ada ketidak terimaan diantara satu sama lain... SO penyelesaiannya adalah KEMBALI KEPADA KASIH YG SEMULA dan buang segala KEPREJUDISAN terhadap gereja Tuhan yg lain ... AMEN ..... itu bagi sia lah k ...

FHL · Status: Offline

Topik ini kalau digali pasti akan menemukan banyak hal-hal mendasar yang mengejutkan. Soalannya ialah apa yang menyebabkan "denominasi" itu muncul? Apakah kewujudan denominasi-denominasi menyebabkan Tubuh Kristus semakin bersatu atau berpecah belah? Apakah agenda utama bagi sesebuah denominasi? Sanggupkah sebuah denominasi berkorban bagi denominasi lain demi kesatuan Tubuh Kristus?

Untuk membantu diskusi ini saya cadangkan kita mula dengan memberikan pendapat tentang perbezaan yang paling ketara antara:

a) Roman Catholic

b) Anglican

c) Lutheran

d) Methodist

e) Calvary

f) Sidang Injil Borneo

g) Salvation Army

h) Baptist

i) Seventh Day Adventist (SDA)

j) Jehovah Witness

TQ.

gidong · Status: Offline

WOW FHL, satu ajakan forum yang sangat BERANI MATI, hmm ada sesiapa yang mau mulakan ...

procorus · Status: Offline

Hmm.. Pada pendapat saya yang tidak seberapa ini, ada sesetengah cabang atau denominasi yang wujud pada masa yang lampau atau yang lalu atas kepentingan pihak atau seseorang individu tersebut.

Walaupun demikian sesetengah denominasi itu tidak boleh dikritik atas dasar bagaimana denominasi itu terbentuk tetapi harus dilihat dari segi keberhasilannya sekarang untuk memperluaskan Kerajaan Sorga..

Sekadar pendapat suku sen saya..

Minta maaf kepada FHL jika jawapan ini tidak berkaitan dengan soalan yang diberi.

wmuyou · Status: Offline

Kita dalam perjalanan ke arah kesempurnaan gereja di akhir zaman. Jadi ada yg mendahului, ada yg lambat sikit dan ada pula yg lebih awal dapat pewahyuan dari Tuhan utk berubah kearah kesempurnaan. Oleh sebab itu gereja2 mempunyai byk cara untuk mengendalikan upacara kegerejaan yg kadang2 blh menimbulkan kontreversi setengah2 pihak.

Walaubagaimanapun pendapat saya, terimalah kekurangan dan kelebihan greja2 ini kerana hanya cara dan method saja yg berbeza. tujuan pada keseluruhannya adalah sama... memuliakan dan memenangkan bumi ini bagi Tuhan... JAdi lebihbanik bekerja sama saja dan bernetwork dgn greja2 di bumi...

Faith · Status: Offline

quote:
Originally posted by:
"Kita dalam perjalanan ke arah kesempurnaan gereja di akhir zaman. Jadi ada yg mendahului, ada yg lambat sikit dan ada pula yg lebih awal dapat pewahyuan dari Tuhan utk berubah kearah kesempurnaan. Oleh sebab itu gereja2 mempunyai byk cara untuk mengendalikan upacara kegerejaan yg kadang2 blh menimbulkan kontreversi setengah2 pihak. Walaubagaimanapun pendapat saya, terimalah kekurangan dan kelebihan greja2 ini kerana hanya cara dan method saja yg berbeza. tujuan pada keseluruhannya adalah sama... memuliakan dan memenangkan bumi ini bagi Tuhan... JAdi lebihbanik bekerja sama saja dan bernetwork dgn greja2 di bumi..."

Yes, I definitely agree with bro. Wellon. Mgkn cara & method sesebuah gereja berlainan, tapi klu ianya mengarah pada satu tujuan yg sama, iaitu to glorify God & to memenangkan bumi ini bagi Tuhan, kan itu satu perkara yg sangat baik... & I definitely agree with the cooperation & networking between churches, kerna hanya dgn cara ini, barulah satu spirit of unity atau roh kesatuan itu benar2 dpt diwujudkan, & kita sbg umat Tuhan pun akan menjadi lebih kuat dlm menghadapi peperangan rohani sementara kita masih hidup di bumi ini... Amen

FHL · Status: Offline

Saya sangat bersetuju dengan pendapat para budiman. Lebih baik dan bermanfaat untuk dapat bekerjasama dengan gereja-gereja lain daripada melihat kepada perbezaan yang ada. Selamat berforum. Tuhan memberkati.

procorus · Status: Offline

quote:
Originally posted by:
"Saya sangat bersetuju dengan pendapat para budiman. Lebih baik dan bermanfaat untuk dapat bekerjasama dengan gereja-gereja lain daripada melihat kepada perbezaan yang ada. Selamat berforum. Tuhan memberkati. "

Betul tu FHL.. Tapi ada tapinya.. Hehe..

Contohnya gereja di Amerika Syarikat yang manghalalkan perkahwinan sesama jantina dan yang mentahbis pemimpin-pemimpin gereja mereka yang menjalankan kehidupan mereka sebagai seorang homoseksual. Gereja semacam ini harus di'ban' dengan sekeras-kerasnya!!

Syukur gereja semacam ini belum muncul di Sabah ataupun Malaysia..

Sekadar pendapat suku sen saya..

wmuyou · Status: Offline

itu greja sesat la pro! kita harus dapat bezakan organisasi kristen dan organisasi setan/sesat.

FHL · Status: Offline

Bapak-Ibu yang dihormati,

Cuba kita fikirkan, bagaimanakah cara BAN itu boleh memperbaiki keadaan? Setahu saya cara pelaksanaan BAN itu cuma dalam bentuk suatu ketetapan keputusan mesyuarat dan kemudian diedarkan surat pekeliling.

Cara penguatkuasaan jarang dilihat dilaksanakan secara praktik. Ini kerana sangat diperlukan keberanian untuk berhadapan dengan orang-orang yang di BAN itu dan menyatakan pada mereka sebab-sebab mereka di BAN. Mungkinkah BAN itu cuma mainan kata-kata? Dalam kata lain, cuma suatu "gertakan"? Atau mungkin budaya bangsa kita yang tidak biasa untuk memberi dan menerima pendisiplinan?

Bagaimana pendapat kalian? Maranatha.

brother · Status: Offline

Mungkin orang malaysia suka nya main belakang ya..jgn disalah tafsir ya..cuma kalau mau ban ya.. harus berani juga utk melaksanakannya. Kalau hanya suka bikin mesyuarat2 dan keputusan hanya di meja mesyuarat maka bagi saya itu semua hanya sendiwara..

Hanya mau memberitahu masyarakat luar yg mreka2 ini punya kuasa. mungkin juga mreka ini haus kuasa ya! siapa tahu! Tapi ini hanya pandangan saya saja.. mungkin salah dan bagi mreka yg berkenaan jgn tersinggung ya....

procorus · Status: Offline

quote:
Originally posted by:
"itu greja sesat la pro! kita harus dapat bezakan organisasi kristen dan organisasi setan/sesat."

Memanglah tu gereja sesat.. Kan sudah terang-terangan gereja tu melakukan dosa.. Hehe.. Check out this web site:http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1057487,00.html

Saya ingin meminta maaf terlebih dahulu jika web site tersebut menyinggung hati kawan-kawan sekalian..

brother · Status: Offline

inilah akibat kalau pendosa mulai menguasai gereja.. dari ban skarang lulus dosa.. daysat2.

jock · Status: Offline

Kalau dah tau gereja tu secara sengaja melanggar FIRMAN TUHAN ... TOLAK saja .... jangan ikut melanggar Firman Tuhan .......... jangan biar orang masuk pintu neraka, kita pun ikut saja ... itu BODOH namanya .... BODOH ROHANI hahahahahah dah tau sodom dan gomorah diHukum pasal tu, tak kan nak buat juga dosa tu hahahahaha, rasa2nya keadaan Sodom lebih baik dari keadaan dunia masa ni, nasib baik kita dalam zaman ANUGERAH, kalau tidak dah lama dunia ni dibakar jadi abu .... hahahahha betobat betobat ....

gidong · Status: Offline

Ya jock gue setuju banget, kalau udah tau panas api neraka, buat apa lagi mo ikut org yg kesana, dah tau sesat HAH cari yang tak sesat .... yg murni dari TUHAN ... eh BODOH ROHANI ada ya ? PINTAR ROHANI yang gimana tuh ?

FHL · Status: Offline

Salah satu indikasi kematangan sesebuah komuniti ialah keberanian untuk membincangkan apa juga isu-isu kehidupan meskipun yg bergelar 'taboo'.

Topik ini juga boleh dikira 'taboo' kerna ianya terlalu sensitif bagi kebanyakan orang kristen. Asal saja nama gerejanya disebut dengan nada negatif maka serta merta mereka menjadi 'defensive'. Apa sebenarnya yg mahu dipertahankan? Sifat ini sudah lama ditegur oleh Firman Tuhan. Baca 1 Kor. 1:10-17. Ciri2 orang kristen yg bangga dengan hubungannya dengan kumpulan2 atau organisasi2 (termasuklah gereja2 denominasi) kristen adalah termasuk dalam kategori yg ditegur itu. Apa sebenarnya yg dibanggakan oleh sesebuah denominasi? Sejarahnya? Kekayaannya? Bilangan jemaatnya? Manifestasi kuasa yg ada dalamnya? Pemimpin2nya? Tradisinya? Bangunannya? Keinteletualismanya? Politiknya? Hubungannya dengan organisasi yg mahsyur? 'Kerendahan' hatinya? Kekudusannya? Apakah ini semua layak untuk dibanggakan?

Baca 1 Kor. 1:22-25. Bukan mukjizat atau hikmat yg sepatutnya dikumandangkan! Sebaliknya hanya Kristus. Kristus ialah kuasa dan hikmat Allah. Apakah Yesus bangga dengan denominasi? Apakah Yesus suka melihat tubuhnya berpuak-puak? Apakah Yesus senang melihat nama denominasi lebih tertonjol daripada berita salibNya?

Date: Dec 5 22:43:14 2004

Blessed to all,

Why was Christian denominations existed in the first place? In my opinion, Christian have their own way of worshipping God. Some Christian like to worship God in a very solemn way, with only organ and guitar for assistance. Some Christian prefer to worship God in a loud music, jumping and singing, you know, the charismatic way. Some Christian, like Mel Gibson, attend Orthodox Church, that only allows Greek and Latin to be used during worship.

Another reason why Christian denominations exist is probably because of the environment of where each denomination originate. Say for instance, in Russia, the Orthodox Churches strictly prohibit the women wearing pants, and black attire is a must during Sunday service. The Coptic Churches in Eygpt have extremely strict code of dressings. Call them outdated, but the fact is these two mentioned churches have suffered among the greatest sufferings of Christian in history. The Coptic church survived for centuries, enduring great persecutions living among hardcore Islamic believers, and the church of Russia survived during the Communist era. Believe it or not, they still exist till now.

FHL, with great respect, I do not believe that maturity of churches is defined by the willingness of its member to discuss 'taboo's. Two churches I have mentioned before have so many 'taboo's that to our thinking nowadays are so impractical. But they lived.

We are so blessed that Christian here don't suffer as much as they are. One Burmese Christian friend told me, she is able to worship God freely here than she was there in Burma. She is happy enough to be able to worship God freely here as we here argue which denomination is better. Same place, different mentality.

So what actually define the maturity of a church? I would say this, strip all the luxury of the church to its bare essence, and see how long does it stand. Suffering is the best test of faith.

Think about it.

God bless and regards.

Date: Dec 7 02:08:50 2004

Can you define what 'Taboo' is? How does 'Taboo' originate? Is there any 'Taboo' in the bible?

Date: Dec 7 18:07:27 2004

Thought, I seriously believe the definitions of the word 'taboo' are clearly explained in English dictionaries, and can be easily accessed in the libraries and bookstores city-wide. Read one, understand, and refer to the bible. If you don't understand, your pastor should be willing to explain that to you, better even to meet him/her personally. Anyway, to briefly explain it, 'taboo' in this context, is a word originate in Tongan meaning 'prohibition imposed by social custom' (quoted from Oxford Dictionary). The concept of taboo can be found in so many places in the Bible, but since taboo is created based on one's cultural background, one person's taboo is different to another.

Regards.

Date: Dec 7 19:20:06 2004

My dictionary says that 'Taboo' is "religious or magical rule forbidding any mention of, or contact with, a person or object considered either as sacred or as accursed, unclean etc; strong social custom forbidding an act or the mention of certain topics".

Do you honestly believe that taboo is good for a christian to grow and mature? Don't you think the bible is capable of answering any taboos that man can ever think of? Are you satisfied just to comply with taboos or do you seek to find the reason for such taboo to exist? Do you not think that taboo should be progressively phased out as a community gains better understanding of their condition? Are you the type that stays the way you are until you die or do you not seek to go after greater things God has promised?

Date: Dec 7 23:55:21 2004

Thought, you're missing my point here.

I've said previously that some taboos are impractical. Prohibiting women wearing pants during Sunday service? And all dressed up in black? Give me a break. But looking to these two churches I've mentioned before, I'm amazed how firmly they are grounded in their faith despite persecutions within their locales. Taking the risk to be captured and physical and mentally tortured for practising their faith. I definitely will not look down on these churches despite of their so-called taboos. They are whom I would called as the Christ's 'unsung heroes'.

But, going back to your question, is this good for Christians? In some way, it is. Previously mentioned by earlier respondents, homosexuality is a taboo which should not be practised in the church. Homosexuality is a no-no to God, and the bible clearly explains that. Does the bible capable answering any taboos man can ever think of? It's up to the person to seek the answer. Some are explicitly explained in the Word of God, such as the case of homosexuality, and some are not. I believe one can find the answer through Bible reading, spending extensive time in prayer, and consulting matured Christians for their views. My question to you is this, what is your definition of 'greater things that God has promised'? What if God said, 'go and preach my Word to those living in the Amazon jungle?' Stripped from all the luxuries in life. Do you define this as having bigger paychecks and stable life? I suggest you read the book "Four Souls" to open your eyes to some churches around the world, disregarding their denominations, are enduring right now.

Date: Dec 8 01:43:15 2004

......I'll get back to you later..................Keep thinking..............

Date: Dec 8 19:55:41 2004

I don't see prohibiting women wearing pants on sunday and dressing up in black as impractical. If they like doing that and it will not cause hygienic or financial problem then why not? The question is whether this tradition will be relevant generation after generation. What if their new generation starts to be influenced by the effect of globalization where the more popular culture on cable TV or advertisement begins to make impact? Or perhaps due to changes forced by social, economic and infrastructures development? Like it or not lifestyle will have to change. If you're brought up in kampung but now live in a city you have to change your lifestyle. Can you survive in a city with kampung lifestyle? Imagine this, a family who bought a house in the center of KL 20 years ago. That time their neighbourhoods were all residential areas. Then as time went on the surrounding started to change as office buildings, shopping and entertainment outlets began taking over the place. What's gonna happen to the family? Can they remain the same? Suppose that they're christians, can they relate to the community by maintaining the lifestyle of 20 years ago? Maybe they can but will they be effective witnesses for Christ? There are people who believe in being traditionalists. There are good values there. But at the same time there are bad ones too. I believe you live in city area. From what I can gather so far from your info. you seem to be active in the evangelical church movement, doing ministries in and out various denominations. Let me ask you this, what is your church evangelization and discipleship methods nowadays? Any different 10 years ago? Is it the kind that get people from altar calls in crusades and put them into the 'church system' where they supposed to be attending sunday service, cell group, prayer meeting, pay their tithes etc. etc. Or is it the CCC type? These are the most common ways and sometimes even said to be the only ways. How effective are these methods for the new generations? Those who have been strongly influenced by rock music, MTV, Playstation, AF, Reality shows, Oprah Winfrey, etc. etc? These are very strong influences. What about those christians Sabahans from kampungs who went to semenanjung to work? Can the 'church system' contain them? Can the system rescue those in vice activities? I'm not saying all this because I'm an expert or what. This is a discussion right. This is connected to the taboo subject since many of the church approaches have already been used for so long until nobody wants to question the effectiveness and start considering fresh approaches. On church management, what do you think if a church is being run like a company? You got a pyramid structure, subordinates reporting to bosses. Is this what Jesus got in mind? Now that's another taboo. Protestants say they have reformed away from the Roman Catholics and yet look at them now. They have even more "POPES" than the RC. Do you know what I'm talking about?

Date: Dec 9 21:00:37 2004

You've mentioned before that there's nothing impractical about non-pants attire and wearing black during Sunday service. You said again that if they like it, there's nothing wrong with it. Now, there's the big "IF". I'm not refering to an individual liking, but I'm refering to the church rule imposed to its congregation. What if some outsider went to the church, and when wanting to attend Sunday service, entrance was denied. Why, because he/she don't fit the dressing code. Now, is that practical? What if I say, that when a man wants to attend Sunday service in a certain church, and he has to wear a skirt-like attire to attend. Laugh as you may, but some of the official wearing in the countries in the Pacific Ocean consist of skirt-like attire.

This is what I disagree with you. Lifestyle does not determine in the social norm that you live in, but what you believe all the time. A kampung boy will always be a kampung boy even if you live in the city. A Datuk can eat together with his old-kampung friends, in some old coffee shop, though he spend most of his time in the city. I believe that the knowledge of what happens helps you adapt with the culture where you live in, but culture itself does not determine how you should live. Yes, I spent most of my time living in the city, but for one, I'm not narrow-minded. I'm sensitive to whatever that is happening not only around my locale, but also around the globe. I realize the impacts of globalization is increasingly influencing, but not all places have the same stages of influences. So, your way of preaching the gospel should be flexible.

You said that you're not an expert, and neither do I. But think for a second, all these cells groups and, prayer meetings and paying tithes are all practised since the first generation of Christians till now. If you call that approach outdated, why is it that the Christian nowadays still practise this so-called ancient activities taught by the apostle, and see the effectiveness of the approaches? Do you believe that all activities written in the bible are all outdated, and should not be used in the now-time?

Everybody needs to play the part in spreading the Word of God, by his/her means and ways. The burden should not be carried by the leaders of the church alone. Each individual claims themselves as Christian should take part in this. Why would you think that Sabahan Christians were involved in vice activities? I believe how firm they are in their biblical foundations and how they practice this in their daily lives determine that. Everything goes back to square one. Dressing up like a city boy, talking like a city boy, and acting like a city boy don't ensure that you'll be living free from temptations. Look, you don't just go into some Orthodox church and pointing this is wrong and that is wrong. You have to respect their taboos in order for you to be accepted in their church. Then can you only expose to them GRADUALLY about what is happening around. It's all a matter of respect.

What offends me is this, who are you to judge the leaders of each church? They are human as you and I are. Why do you view the leader of the Catholic church like that? What do you view the Pope as? Do you think that you're better than the "Popes" you've claimed in churches nowadays?

Date: Dec 9 23:04:23 2004

Well let's just say we see things differently. Come to think of it, it is not possible to communicate an issue from two different paradigms. I sincerely apologize to you for any untoward feelings that may have occured resulting from our exchanges. May God shower you with abundant blessing in your personal life, relationship, career, ministries and so forth.

ADIOS BRO/SIS!

Date: Dec 19 18:04:57 2004

Hello again,

Sorry for not being able to reply you sooner, due to unforeseen errands I have to run.

Look, okay, maybe I sounded offended, but this is how I speak out my mind, and seriously, I just meant to be firm. It's probably because of the environment where I work at. Anyway, I've been hanging around with lots of interdenominational friends, and I enquired lots of things of what they believe in, and begin to learn some of what they believe in.

When I came back to Sabah after getting a degree, I was a bit shocked, and not less than offended, that some Christians here defines a Christian from the church they come from. "Are you a "church denomination"" kind of question. Back where I studied then, a Christian would come up to me and asked "are you a Christian"? So what if I'm a Catholic, or from Calvary, from SIB, or anywhere? I'm a Christian, that's the point.

True to what you say, we both have, in a sense, totally different paradigms, which I believe developed from the different cultures both of us were exposed to. But I believe in one way we are the same; both of us are learning.

Forgive me for my offensive remarks, and God bless you too in your ministry, whatever and wherever God calls you into. Merry Christmas!